Author: Ken Kinard

What is temptation?
temptation is not sin
what was it like to share your temptations?
looking back they seem silly/not that important
it takes something from your heart
James-temptations based on our own lust
still hard to share temptation
still equating with sin
if we could confess temptations and have accountability-then it could lose it’s power
what is temptation?
opportunity to gratify self
opportunity to do something that you know is wrong
match a desire (James)
in the book, for power
justification of temptation is where it leads to sin
the tempter comes in with lies
temptation from the book
Boromir
believed that he could master the ring-didn’t believe the truth about it
looking at history
Kings of Israel
What is Tolkien’s perspective on temptation
some characters are able to withstand the temptation
Gandalf, Aragorn, Elrond, Galadriel
these characters had deep self-awareness
knows their weaknesses
Faramir
not aspiring
accepting place in the greater scheme of life
proper response to temptation
flee, admit weakness
Evil-how does it effect each person
treating the ring as evil
Gollum-murder, mastered him, rules over him, transforms into a grotesque creature
Frodo-starting to feel the physical oppression of the ring, distrust of others/paranoia, hard to resist being exposed
Courage
once there is evil and temptation, then there is courage
Sam-has a lot of courage-saved the day-took great risks for the benefit of others
definition of courage (after discussing Sam) – decision, taking risks to benefit others, there is a cost, something that is more important than evil, doing the right thing, hope factors into courage, requires leadership
Frodo-what does he have to risk?
life, inheritance, the Shire,
Aragorn-what is he risking?
life, Kingship, revelation of being a King
what effect does courage have on others-contagious, leadership
what do others in your fellowship need from you?
everyone is tempted
everyone has fallen into justification
leadership sometimes comes from the side

Recap of discussions from the other groups:

Hobbits:
What would we do if a friend fell to temptation? pattern of Matthew
Lying is usually a part of covering up your fall from temptation
good can be corrupted into evil and/or passivity can allow good to become evil
More to the characters than black or white good/evil
Good characters are able to withstand temptation
Courage-Samwise had to have courage to go on alone after Frodo appears to be dead
Giving into the temptation might look good for awhile, but ultimately will lead to evil
Encouragement-bringing out courage in others

Ents:
pathway of temptation to evil to destruction
pathway of courage-might not be able to see the end result
discussion of, “Is taking care of oneself evil?” ex. the Ents
Is apathy/passivity evil? discussion of good/evil of characters
Evil characters are 100% evil
Good characters are 100% good, but are vulnerable to temptation and evil
Is it possible to be good and evil at the same time

Bio

Victorian family, artistic family, brothers were educated but she hated that she wasn’t. Family was behind the times about 50 years. Close to her sister Vanessa, a painter. Virginia decided to be a writer. Self educated. Picked up a pencil early and was always writing. Mother died at age 13, mental illness followed soon after. Close to a half-sister Stella, much older, who died soon after. Father died a few years after that. Sexually abused by a half-brother. Parents died before any literary career. She was 3rd of 4 siblings of her parents, older parents than usual, both with previous marriages.

First published in 1900, an article in Times Literary Supplement. Spent her life trying to prove herself as a writer. As an adult, was involved in the Bloomsbury Group, a progressive group of thinkers and writers. They were all about what was good. Sexually liberal. Discussed philosophy. Big influence on her and her writing.

1912 married Leonard Wolf, part of the Bloomsbury Group. He was a writer, pro-feminist. First novel published 1915, spent several years in hospitals for mental illness. The book shows her compassion for people with mental illness.

She had an affair with Vita, a woman who later became a friend for the rest of her life. Vita was a big supporter. With Leonard, Virginia started their own press, so they published their own books. In 1941 committed suicide by drowning herself, filling her clothing with rocks and going into the river. Her most recent book, a biography of Roger Fry, wasn’t well received.

Mrs. Dalloway, written in 1925, set in 1922, post WWI, which figures a lot into the book. After the Edwardian period, a golden age.

The Novel and Mrs. Dalloway’s Place

Early novels, like Don Quixote, explored reality in the way things happened: plot. Early 1700s Robinson Curuso and others use literary realism, authors creating their own characters that interact in the real world, taking you inside their minds. Represent the lives of people who could really exist. The novel was becoming more accessible, certainly than poetry.

Novels read by servants and women. they can see their own issues expressed in literature. The role of the narrators develops. In Jane Eyre we have an omniscient narrator, who knows not only all of the characters, but also their inner lives and thoughts.

Henry James used point of view narration: limiting the narrative to a single character’s knowledge and perspective. This goes deeper into a single character.

1900s novelists go even further inward, such as Virginia Woolf and James Joyce, pushing the whole story through their perspective, their thoughts, their history.

Stream of consciousness is a new: James Joyce, Wolf, and William Faulkner are the pioneers of this technique. Virginia wants to go deep inside the characters and what makes them tick.

We also see early relativism in respect to truth, as well as existentialism.

Pat: Poetic language, rich vocabulary.

Ken on audio version: written one first hard to get into. Blast those many semi-colons! But the audio version better fits the stream-of-consciousness technique.

John: finding it hard to suspend disbelief when Clarissa “just knows” without any words, what Peter is thinking and feeling.

I Thessalonians 5, praying without ceasing, taking thoughts captive. Presenting thoughts to God to know what to make of one’s thoughts.

Discussion led by Pat,  3/18/12

Mein Kampf means my struggle and has been banned in Germany until 2016.  He dictated it while in prison for being part of an uprising.  It was more like house arrest than a prison as we know it.  Germany started the WWI.  The Germanic people have always been very warlike.  The Versailles Treaty was so serve for the Germans that the German nation couldn’t stand.  It redivided the land of Europe and many Germans lived under another flag.    Tax debt of $8 million that they could not repay.  Allowed no standing army, navy, or air force, limited   and not munitions production.  Then the US depression effected Germany.  One american dollar was 4 billon 200 thousand marks.  Reich means kingdom and was used by Charlemagne as well.  The swastika was from the Hindus in India.  Hitler was a very hand on and controlling.  He and his aides were very interested in the occult.  He was a mesmerizing public speaker.  He would practice his speeches and gestures in front of a mirror.  As the German workers party grew, he began speaking more and he attracted people to the party.  Hitler was always fighting the Marxists and the Jews.  He preferred to do his propaganda in person.  Hitler infiltrated the Austrian government.  Dawes Plan was English and they were trying to undo some of the Versailles Treaty, but Hitler would have nothing to do with it.  Hitler controlled marriage.  He divided the people into three classes with the Aryan race on top.  Jews weren’t allowed to marriage. He gradually controlled the newspapers, art, education.  He was not intellectual or scholarly.  He was more interested in the German people.  Health was paramount to him.  Homeschooling was not allowed and still isn’t.  He controlled birth.  He took arian healthy girls and was breeding them.  12,000 babies were born and never knew their parents.  Hitler was a veracious reader of crank writers from which he developed his repressive ideas.  Men and women were to be physically fit and should have as many children as possible.  Then, they would be given a bigger house.  He admired the US for its production of machinery, Henry Ford for his assembly line, and they herding of the native americans into reservations.  Hitler had another book that explained his plans to come to the US.  He figured he needed at least 500,000 square kilometers of land.  The great depression gives rise to Hitler.  He begins  preparing ships with 18” guns which was larger than others.  The US was his last stop and he was building plans and rockets for this.  He used persuasion, propaganda, and elimination.  The Germans felt that their government had acquiesced and the dire straits of the people saw Hitler as a savior.  Hitler changed the laws so that he could do what he wanted and the courts couldn’t do anything.

There were some good things.  In the 30’s and 40’s, the German scientist found the link between smoking and cancer.  They also discovered the dangers of asbestos and radon.  They had good study methods.  Because of eugenics and using Jews for testing, many scientists left.  They invented the magnetic tape recorder.  The electron microscope, Switched emphasis to weapons.  They developed plans with jet engines.  But, Hitler wanted the Blitzkrieg attach so he wanted bombers more than jets.  After the defeat to England, he decided to look at he jet but is twas too late.  They invented the ejection seat and the VW beetle, the car for the masses.

Hitler’s occult practices led to his hatred.  He also used drugs.  He was greatly influenced by Hegel and Nietzsche as well as anti-semitic papers.  He was also influence by Darwin.

How did Himmler turn the SS into a killing machine?  He gave them drugs and seared their conscience.

Israel became a state by vote of the UN.  Israel then had to defend her statehood.

Is silence complicity?

What do you need to be a hero?  Corrie tenBoom, Bonhoeffer, The cause you are fighting for has to be bigger than your life.  There were at least 11,000 gentiles who saved Jews during this time period.  In Denmark, King Christiana wore the Jewish armband and then the people did also so it wasn’t obvious who was Jewish.

Bonhoeffer’s friend said ,“The sin of respectable people reveals itself in flight from responsibility.”

Parallels between 1940 Germany and US today.

Slogans, apathy, left-leaning newspapers, financial problems, immorality, no absolute right and wrong.

Pat recommends Hitlers Cross by Erwin Lutzer and The Garden of the Beast by Eric Larson.

Movies to watch in preparation for the next book are:

Mrs. Dalloway

The Hours

Langston Hughes (John)

Engineering background, went to Columbia, relationship with father who supported his college. Dropped out and went to Harlem, wanted to write poetry. Writes primarily about the problem of race relations in America. Possibly homosexual but doesn’t claim it openly.

Negro Speaks of Rivers

Liked Carl Sandburg as a poet, who was writing his first book, considered too extreme, too abstract. Tried to write like him. Liked him because he could relate (Midwest cities, poor people). Also liked Dunbar, a famous Negro poet, who wrote in a singing rhyme verse, quaint Negro dialect of the post-war period.

Has a couple of black grandmothers and many others but identifies with Black people. Speaks to their plight.

He tried to write like both of them, combining very different styles.

Write this poem at age 18 on a train. Saw a muddy river flowing to the South, what it meant, in slavery time to be down the Mississippi, to be sent down there you might not live long. Abe Lincoln had seen slave trading in New Orleans. He later signed the Emancipation Proclamation to free slaves. Sent it to the Crisis, an Afro magazine.

We are the American Heartbreak: the Negro problem in American democracy. Tries to capture aspects of this problem in the poetry. People double the prices of houses to Black people.

Colored Child at Carnival

Where is the Jim Crow section of this merry-go-round? Going on a train up north, girl tries to find her place.

Dinner Guest: Me

White response to the Negro problem. “I know I am the Negro Problem…”

Commentary

He sees the river as taking Negros down into slavery and death.

Holds up the dignity of the African peoples, those who have a rich heritage.

What connection to Jazz does he make? As Jazz becomes the American music, what relation to poets is present? He’s a Jazz Poet.

Trumpet Player

“The negro with the trumpet at his lips, his dark moons of weariness…trouble mellows to a golden note.”

W.H. Auden (Wendy)

1907-1973, lived in England, moved to America later, re-wrote the poems from England in America (you can link old and new versions). He’s a modernist but tended to be focused on previous poetry, more of the rhyming and meter. Criticized for this by his contemporaries. Focused on relationships and community, not individuality for its own sake.

Grew up Protestant and ended up later going back to it, seeing Christianity as the embodiment of friendship and equality among all me. Did he become a Christian or just appreciate the values? Homosexual, but married.

Lay Your Sleeping Head, My Love

 

Philip Larkin (Angie)

Professional librarian, only child, poor eyesight, stuttered as a youth, buried in stacks of books imagining other people’s lives, seeing the sad in life. Could be grouchy, foul mouthed, right-wing curmudgeon, shied from publicity, depressed with fame.

Why do poets right? Poets often write on scraps of paper that are only later found. Like painters who just need to get it out. Dancers who just need to dance. Composers who can’t not compose.

Reflected the distress of post-war England. Limited to England, his emotional territory. Part of the Movement, an association of British writers returning to traditional techniques, anti-experimental. His work reflects a life unspent, but with moments of beauty.

Since the Majority of Me

Counting

This Be the Verse: encouraging people not to have kids because parents mess them up.

He’s an observer, recluse, curmudgeon, separate from the world.

What kind of worker are you?

Angie – line worker, efficient, not setting up the line…just implementing it, definite separation between work and creativity
Wendy – best with deadlines, motivation, priority, finisher (like Nick)
Nick – finisher, doesn’t like things half-done, creative within boundaries
Jennifer – easily distracted from menial tasks but more focused in more demanding tasks, starter – likes to learn new things better than finishing what’s been started
John – complicated worker…analytic thinker and likely to reinvent the line, tends to build a clock that’s too big to wind and then has to scale back to what’s realistic, thinks about who’s benefitting from it, finisher wannabe
Ken – manic depressive worker: manic – creative, expansive, making something new, pulling from a diverse range of options, rage to master and complete, intense, sticks with it as long as there’s energy; depressive – loses any sense of value in what he’s done, then does repetitive work until he gets bored…which launches the next environment

Weber’s background

1864–1920
father known for enjoying life
mother was a Calvinist (God picked you, ascetic – your life shows that you’re saved)
background in law – builds systematic cases, not a sloppy thinker
German sociologist and economist (one of the 3 fathers of sociology – scientific approach to studying human culture in groups)
World’s Fair – St. Louis, 1904 – Weber was in St. Louis at that time so Ken’s theory is that it must have influenced his work
Karl Marx – reductionist compared to Weber, would say it’s all based on class and economics (Weber says there are other cultural forces at work)
described himself as irreligious
his culture had become post-Catholic (after Luther and Calvin)

What question is he trying to answer with his argument?

Spirit of capitalism = drive
Why is there a drive in some people to continue acquiring wealth, beyond their needs? (capitalism vs. traditionalism)
What is their attitude toward wealth creation?

calling – a sense of being called no matter how much they accumulated, blessed financially because of
source of the calling – Martin Luther, all believers are called…not just the priests, even the people on the lowest rung, the job is never done
work – gives a sense of worth, connection to the middle class
29 – God has given you something to do and you must do it; you are perpetually glorifying God by being profitable (you are offering something of worth)

Luther (Mystical): priesthood of all believers (calling) – you must live up to your calling, questioned canonicity of James

Calvin (Ascetic): you’re chosen or you’re not, total depravity, work out your salvation

Lutheranism and Calvinism led to 4 principal sects of ascetism…

1. Puritanism – Calvinist, no enjoyment now, other-worldly minded, work is evidence of grace, pleasure is for the next life, God-given obligation to be profitable (and then the money goes back to His work)

2. Pietism – believed in predestination, more community oriented, combines asceticism (on an individual level) with mysticism (as a group), God interacts directly with us as a body/group, we demonstrate by our works that we have been saved, Luther showing up in Calvinism

3. Methodism – mystical conversion followed by an ascetic life, two blessings: the conversion and the pursuit of perfection (working out of salvation)

4. Anabaptists – Quakers, Amish, Mennonites, all believe in a believer’s baptism (or rebaptism), start their own sects because they believe that they are the true believers, remove themselves from the world, ascetic group and mystical sanctification (direct access to the Holy Spirit), Bible was then no longer the sole source of authority, not a lot of rules to follow

Result:

Working hard and succeeding is proof of your salvation (that you are one of the chosen)
perpetual profit-making machine

What is the crux of his argument?

That when America was being formed, “religious forces…[were] the decisive influences  in the formation of national character” (Ch. 5, paragraph 1).
The utility of God was in getting the capitalist engine running, but now it doesn’t need him because they have material wealth.
rise of the middle class – people who work to acquire, as long as their work and acquisition of wealth doesn’t hurt anyone else, they can continue to acquire.
Now: Work is not because of a calling – it’s to acquire wealth so we can enjoy ourselves (and give some away).

Where is our culture going? What’s the next step?

Next step should be looking back and reflecting on our roots and finding a higher purpose for work.
Our culture: How much do I have to do to maintain my lifestyle?
end up moving toward a socialist govt because you’re looking to get your needs met (without being willing to work harder for it)
might move toward traditionalism (working just hard enough to meet your needs), which Weber says is the enemy of capitalism

Robert Frost was born in San Francisco, named after Robert E. Lee, family from New England.  At the age of 12, he moved to Salem, NH when his father died.  He graduated as class poet, co-valedictorian with a girl who became his wife.  Took a job at Dartmouth, Harvard, farming background and continue it throughout his life, owned several farms in NH and VT.  One of his farms is a museum called Stone House.  Moved to England and published poetry and then was able to come back to the US and become recognized in the US.  He had 4 Pulitzer prizes.  He first book is A Boys Will which is a collection of poems and he wrote several collections of poetry.  He carefully chose words, patterns, and rhyming to communicate deeper meaning.  Yet, his poems are easy to read and he was appreciated by the common american.

 

A Prayer in Spring (one chapter from A Boys Will)

This poem is written in iambic pentameter.  We see appreciation in flowers, spring, bees, trees, and birds.  In the last stanza, he turns the focus to love and God.  We considered what “sanctify” means, which is to set apart or declare as holy.  It seems that Frost’s prayer is that we would see the creation as holy without focusing on what it can do for us, as in a harvest.

 

Mending Wall

The poem is more about relationships than walls.  Why do we build a wall when we are only growing trees and not animals to pen?  Frosts questions why we need a wall and the neighbor is content to rely on his fathers saying “Good fences make good neighbors.”

 

Nothing Gold Can Stay (part of New Hampshire which was his first Pulitzer prize)

This was written around the time of WWII and the thought of a socialist utopia.  The beginning eludes to the garden of eden which is later referenced specifically.  The element gold is permanent, doesn’t oxidize.  Yet, the irony in the poem highlights the fleeting nature of gold.  The gold in sunrise disappears quickly ushering in the day.

 

The Dedication

Frost wrote this for Kennedy’s inauguration, which was a cold, bright, snowy day.  He couldn’t see well in the brightness, so switched to reciting “The Gift Outright” by memory.

 

The Gift Outright

Frost considers this his Star Spangled Banner. 

A deed of gift is a legal term meaning we are given the gift of land without expectation of return, yet we received it by war.  Perhaps the soldiers who died gave it to us, and the deed of gift which is supposed to be free was very costly in lives.

 

Carl Sandburg:  1878-1967 Born in Illinois.  He left school at age 13, delivered milk, porter at barber shop, bricklayer, farmer, coal heaver, and a writer for the Chicago Daily News.  He won three Pulitzer prizes, one for his biography of Abraham Lincoln, which became a play and he won a Grammy for his performance in this.

 

Chicago

This poem became an iconic poem for Chicago and the country and put Sandburg on the map.  The second section seems like most cities, yet he declares Chicago is “a tall bold slugger set vivid against the little soft cities.”  It stands apart in strength and determination, and the men are proud of their work. Compare and contrast with

 

Skyscraper

We don’t see just a building, but the people who worked to build it and the people who then work there.  The building takes on the life of the people.  It represents the dreams and hopes of the people.  He is the poet of the American people.

 

Sandburg’s perspectives on Christianity is spoken in “To A Contemporary Bunk Shooter”.

 

William Carlos Williams:  1883-1867 Family interested in theater and literature.

Science and math, then at the end of HS he became interested in language.  Went to University of Penn, grew up in Rutherford,NJ and lived there after college.  He became friend with a group of artists.  He was a doctor for as long as his health allowed.  He delivered 2000 babies and most patients didn’t know of his poems.  He wrote at the same time as T.S. Elliot and Ezra Pound.  The publication of “The Wasteland”, which was more in the style of European poetry filled with literary illusions.  Williams was hoping to move poetry in different direction, so he considered this a set back.  His friendship with Ezra Pound helped him to keep a broader perspective, but wrote about things he experienced,  He wanted to use American idioms and used a varying foot.  He mentored young poets in the beat generation, especially  Ginsberg.  He finally won a Pulitzer after he died.  He was part of starting imagism which sought clarity of expression through the use of precise images.  He also uses enjambment, breaking the words in a different place to make you think of the word differently.  He paints a clear picture, but leaves you to wonder about the rest.

 

This is Just to Say

This sounds like a note left to his wife, rather than a poem. Yet, each word was chosen to paint a picture.

 

The Red Wheelbarrow

A clear picture is painted through words.  The imagism is powerful, yet the meaning is very open to interpretation.  It is well known.  He wanted his poems to be understood and accessible to the people.

 

Spring and All

We see signs of spring on the way to the contagious hospital.  New life and rebirth are see in a barren land.  Is this hope for those in a hospital?

 

To Waken An Old Lady

too tired to come up with much…

Audio excerpt: Chapter 14: Solomon, a discussion about the wisest man that ever lived, by Jim and Huck.

Adventures of Tom Sawyer: helps give the context for this story. Famous scenes: painting the fence, Injun Joe in the cave. Tom lived with his aunt. Common superstitions.

It’s a raw story. Poor kid with father who is town drunk. They might search for his body for a day, but oh well, no big loss. Realistic slice from small town America. In a small town, you can’t disappear, everyone is known.

Before reading the book: expecting Twain to bring acerbic wit and social commentary through a child’s perspective.

All-American childhood.

Would you join Huck for a summer? Is his life desirable?

• Summer is the time kids do this.
• Angie: biking along the Mississippi river for a week. Take just what you can carry. Sense of living light. Stop and camp wherever you want. Flat tire creates adventures. Stop at church for mid-week service with some hospitality. Life boiled down to biking, eating and sleeping. So freeing.

Chapter 34: Huck’s plan vs. Tom’s plan

discussion of the word “nigger” as changing from descriptive to derogatory over time. People who want to ban the book not getting the irony, the satiric writing. Twain’s perspective as pro-black.

Twain on Christianity

Sees Christianity as myth, but part of the culture, something you have to go through the motions on. Or does he see it as a lot of white-washed cops—people acting like Christians externally but not good at heart.

Prayer: he prayed about sending  a letter but he couldn’t do it.

Twain lost his father around age 10 or so. Huck looks for a father and finds Jim.

Why does Huck decide to go to hell? He goes against the society, morality, church, law. Instead, he tries to save Jim because of “love” (Angie) or “friendship” (Ken).

Angie: Twain doesn’t have a Christian world view, but he’s “not that far.” He’s attracted to the truth.

He studied the people on the river, which gave him all the characters he needed for his stories. God’s imprint is on these people, so he can capture it by studying His creatures.

Opening exercise: Wendy lives School for Scandal as her family sells off her Aunt’s family portraits.

Traits of Yeats

• Irish identity
• playwright
• believers of faries and ghosts
• father
• spent time outdoors and in the city
• born in Dublin, lived in London and summers back in Ireland
• water experiences where he saw faries
• poet since age 15, published at 20
• Writing about Irish mythology established him as an author, Irish nationalism
• Dublin Club: political, freedom from Britian, cultural distinction from England
• Writes about the occult and had this at the center of all he did and thought
• Susan Wise Bauer: philosophy gyres (vortexes) that the world functions in 2,000 year cycles. Life starts good, gets bad, degenerating into chaos until it rebirths back into order.
• Raised protestant (big in Norther Ireland)

Prayer for a Daughter

He wanted his daughter not to be just truly beautiful, or just prideful and opinionated. He has in view her as an individual, self-happy. Ceremony and politeness required for happiness. Reference ancient gods. Cf. 1 Corinthians 10, pagans sacrificing to idols as demons.

The Magi

Christ seeing the Magi, the sky is in heavens, looking up to tall people from child’s perspective

Easter

Change: the theme of the poem.

I: At the start, sees superficial talk (Show Me from My Fair Lady). II: the people, even the one who married the poet’s unrequited love. III: The stone: standing for what is right, remember the sacrifice of standing against the tide of England. Let’s make them go around us, not let the sacrifice go without it’s purpose…

Cap and Bells

The cap and bells represent: his soul, his identity?

Innisfree

peaceful place, like Walden? in Walden you had to be there to be one with the place, but here he is in the city and takes with him the peace from that natural place. Note internal rhyming.

Lapis Lazuli

The power of arts to buffer tragedy.

The Wheel

Summaries: sense of longing for something past, or coming. Is the longing for death a shock and awe statement: wake up, you can always stop being thirsty when you die. Or an allusion to Christ’s tomb?

Summary:

If you don’t have the reading done, you listen well. Poetry has the pay off in the “aha” moments, giving insight into so many avenues of life (social, political, spiritual, relational). You have to slow down to appreciate poetry, very engaging. The poetry left a legacy worth consideration as great literature.

Paper idea: write on Peace in Walden, Innisfree, and Whitman.

Diana, Ken, Jen, Pat, Angie, John, Wendy, Chris

Angie: Discussion Leader

2 Thoughts: Reaction

Ken: I was very excited.  Return to nature, cleaning out the fridge, was there, could picture, rebellious, very appealing.  Slightly dissappointing, I felt it was an immature/adolescent rebellion versus a mature rebellion.

Diana: Unsatisfied because it wasn’t thorough enough.  Thoreau did not really descend fully into nature but went to town often, had food brought in, etc…  No big deal.  Not a tremendous sacrifice.

Pat:  I think it would be more unusual to do it today.

Hippie lifestyle, 150 years removed.

Angie:  Taking a stand against excess

He was also a proponent of hard work.

Angie:  The mass of men lead lives of quite desperation.  Is this true?

Ken:  Stuff requires hard work and creates desperation, hampster in a cage, not getting anywhere.

Diana:  I speak to the mass of men who are discontented, the complainers.  Also, those who have accumulated their golded fetters.

Jesus:  Had not place to lay his head.

Angie:  What do you think about solitude: Is that necessary.  What do you think?

Ken:  Thoreau views nature as a relationship, and is not particularly excited about people, he is finding companionship in nature as opposed to people.

Ken:  He seems to be at the grammar level of transcendentalism.  He’s describing factual sensory interaction.  He’s helping us to be aware of spiritual and physical things but not teaching us how to make the connections.

Angie:  It’s like he is scolding us.

Chris:  He is young, 27 and he says he sees no value in older people, I’ve never learned anything of value from an older person.

Wendy:  He had no appreciation for the ax.  i gave him the ax back in better condition than he gave it do me.

Pat:  Americans are very independent and Thoreau typifies this.

John:  I am six years old, I’m mad at my dad and I’m runing away, I’ll sho him.

Pat:  There is value in living more simply.

Ken:  Thoreau, derivative of Emerson, but became popular in the 20’s and 60’s.

His house:  10 by 15 feet

Lectures:  Walden pond, troubled in 20th century, commercialism.  Photographers.

John:  If you worship the creation, you don’t value human life, you value nature, no balance.  He is always standing on someone else’s shoulders but then takes credit for it all.

Angie:  how do you reconcile Thoreau’s vision for simplicity with the rat race.

Cabin:  He didn’t have a mat, let’s not go down that slippery slope.

“I learned this at least, that if one advances…..He will meet with a success…weakness, weakness.  not put foundations under them.

Pat:  Simplify:  To spend time on other things other than your stuff.  But Thoreau didn’t use the time wisely.

Angie:  Why is this a great book?

As Christians, we have the inside track.  Are we willing to take the steps, embrace the fullness of life and take risks that God might want us to embrace?

Angie:  It would have been interesting for Thoreau to talk about how we can live simplicity in community.

Angie:  I think it is valid to keep tabs on yourself.  Are you pursuing things that don’t feed your soul?

Ken:  How would you propose doing or pursuing that?

Angie:  It’s hard because its saying no to the good to go after the best.
Jen:  It requires space for reflection
Diana: We spend our leisure time with tv, magazines and consumerism.  But the bible is the answer to everything especially putting things into perspective.

Why did he live:  “I had several more lives to live, and couldn’t spare any more time for that one.”

Robert Lewis Stevenson:  Thoreau was effeminate, womanly, sweet and girly.

Jesus:  Consider the lilies of the field.

I want to turn everything on its head.  I know less know than when I was born.  Nature is calling me.  I don’t trust where I have come from.  There is much more to life.  Go after it.  Suck the marrow out of life.

Angie:  How would a christian have written this book?

Ken:  A christian would go through the creation to get to the creator.
Angie:  Not just sucking the marrow out for yourself.
Jen:  Interactions with people would be richer.  and that people were of more value than the birch trip.
Diane:  He would have had more humility toward other people.
John:  Celebrate the creator, I was thinking he would have had a greater appreciation of nature.