Meno: Discussion

BACKGROUND

Plato born in 428 BC, Socrates 41 at the time, Alcibiades, was in his late 20’s.

PP War ended in 404 BC.

Socrates was executed in 399 BC. (Anytus, the host of Meno, was one of the accusors of Socrates) At this point, Plato lost interest in politics when he saw how Socrates was treated. But now Meno is dead. Socrates is dead. Anytus has been punished. Now Plato is writing Meno using these people to discuss “virtue” in approx. 385 BC.

Do we LEARN VIRTUE OR are we BORN VIRTUOUS?

What is it and how is it attained? Are you born to be good, or are you taught?

Meno – Trying to define virtue , he says Meno must be able to manage public affairs … benefit friends, harm enemies…71e Women must be able to manage the household. preserve posessions, submit to their husband…children…and then under further questions, Meno becomes flummoxed as most do under the questioning of Socrates.

Socrates – I asked for virtue, and you give me a whole swarm of virtues.

John gave us the geometric shapes of squares and triangles (the pieces) but we could not know that they made a whole, a plate.

REMEMBERING VS LEARNING

The slave and geometry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodecahedron

“No one should enter who does not know geometry” over the doorway of the school. After Plato took it over things changed.

Gaining knowledge became more about the seeking. The seeker is better off that the ignorant. Now over the doors of the school was written “All who enter must speak truth”

Instead of giving the right answers, how about giving information/teaching within the boundaries of what your student currently understands.

In the progression of the story we find that Plato has restated Meno’s definition of virtue when he talks to Anytus.

Ken: They have an intuitive grasp of definitions, but seem only to talk in circles, swimming around in what they know but unable to have an “ah ha” moment of recollection. Could the slave really understand what he observed? Or was it really only through the guidance of the teacher? Learning is different than recollection and we realize this, in spite of what Socrates tells us has happened.

If virtue can be taught, how did the sons of virtuous men go astray? This made Anytus angry. He wasn’t really interested in getting to the truth.

KNOWLEDGE VS CORRECT OPINION

Plato was putting a stake in the ground that we must seek truth starting with basic fundamental terms and going to more complex subjects.

The road to Larissa – is knowledge of how to get there any better than correct opinion even if you have never been there?

The genre – The character of Socrates allows Plato to explore new ideas and test some thoughts yet from a distance. Not committed to a structured orthodoxy. This is a genre that is flexible enough for his ideas.

Trying to make us think for ourselves, rather than just collect the ideas of others — so what do we think virtue is?

Scott -Struck me how hard it is to pass on virtue. Good parentage certainly is not a given.

Ken – Not just a knowledge of virtue, but what about a capacity for virtue? Is everyone good at math? language? relationships?

virtue? Do we each have a virtue IQ?

Hmmm…

Meno

Symposium: Discussion

Background

Greek drinking party; Ken = symposiarch or host of a symposium; job to control guests’ drinking (by watering wine); often come together for discussion – each person takes his turn w/o interruption or argument; Plato uses these historical figures as editorial

Greek words used: love – eros; wisdom – sophia

Comments on Speeches

Phaedrus

love is an ancient god; most ancient, most honored, most powerful; set the rules; this love is asymmetrical – older to younger; source of greatest gifts/benefits; preventative power of love against being ashamed, foolish, rash; sacrifice inspired by love is honored by the gods

Background – Patroclus is cousin and young apprentice of Achilles
love in Greek culture – common love bet. man and woman; higher love bet. older man and younger man – “apprenticeship-plus” – training them up to be something greater; older one coming to woo apprenticeship of younger – parents would play game of protecting child, older = lover, younger = non-lover/beloved; relationship can be sexual but not always (men are homosexual/bisexual)
pederasty – Gk, relationship bet. adolescent boy and adult man outside his immediate family

Pausanias

separates into two kinds of love

vulgar – heterosexual love, attributed to younger Aphrodite
virtuous – heavenly Aphrodite (older), pederasty, homosexual love (elevating their own custom as best kind), better b/c transfer of wisdom; more than just sexual; shows value of wisdom (spiritual) above physical (Gnostic view of physical as base)

what we see as perversion in our culture was means Greeks used to advance their culture

Eryximachus – the doctor

expands love beyond just human – universal force (in body, music)
balance/harmony of opposites (vulgar and virtuous)
hint of divine – (188D) – love as force for reconciliation between gods and men
(Ken – context – best to be ignored by gods than on either their good or bad side)
first to bring in the idea of the good and of virtue (temperance, justice)

Aristophanes – comic playwright

Comic playwright of Athens, wrote Clouds (which slanders Socrates and which Socrates blames in part for his demise, see Plato’s Apology)

originally man had three sexes – double male, double female and androgynous (both male and female)
androgynous – to explain heterosexual love, longing we have to love someone
question over what androgyny means in these ancient “double-people”
love = pursuit of the whole, desire to be complete (193A)
now we’re half, love is a cure (that heals us)
no positive heterosexuality (continues to be vulgar)
misogynistic undertones? is female homosexual love middle tier of three? (lower than male homosexual love)

Agathon – companion of Pausanias, tragic poet, won first prize for tragedy Lenaia

tragic poet, just won prize that drinking party is celebrating (3 days in a row – one tragedy each day and winner of three gets prize); 32 yrs old (Wikipedia)

makes love youngest god; forever young and tender
love is delicate, resides in people’s souls (soft places)
never forces itself
always beautiful
love – moral character — moderation, brave, just, wisdom (classic virtues)
everyone he touches becomes a poet
we need love so we don’t sink into obscurity; love is high form of community (Ken – obscurity defined as absence of community)

specific lines commented on

196D- “he who has the hold is more powerful than he who is held” – interesting point
just above 197A – can’t give what you don’t have or teach what you don’t know
197C – idea of necessity coming before love – dreadful deeds done by gods out of necessity (brute survival)

Socrates

refocuses argument entirely – criticizes others of just attributing all good things to love and instead tries to find truth about love via questions;

why use questions? – aids with progression of logic and taking assumptions to their logical ends and showing their absurdity; questions help engage his opponents

Ken – #1 Socratic principle – only claims that he is wiser in one aspect – that he knows that he doesn’t know, and that is the beginning of wisdom; seeks truth by asking questions of those who claim to know

Argument with Agathon:

love has an object
love’s object is something it doesn’t have (or wants to continue to have)
love seeks beauty, the good
therefore love is not beautiful or good

Diotima

priestess who Socrates seeks as knowing something about love; from Manitea; could be fictitious; according to legend, kept plague away from Athens for 10 years

love can be ugly
love can be neutral; love is in between – a spirit not a god – aligns better with what other speakers were actually saying about god
Greek word for spirit = daemon (spiritual/non-physical version of demi-god)
love is intercessor between gods and men; in the middle – connecting force
knowledge –> desire –> love
Diotima’s ladder – 210-211 – progression of love – from love of one form/body (outward appearance) and upward to higher loves (of inwards) – from bodies to practices/customs to ideas to absolute beauty
acc. to Plato, essence of beauty (absolute beauty) is highest form
researcher: these are the 6 steps of love up ladder, used extensively in Renaissance when discussing Platonic love
6 levels: one body, two bodies, all bodies, practices/customs, ideas, absolute beauty
debate over whether first six speeches mirror these 6 forms of love (introduced by Angie)

Alcibiades

traitor in Peloponnesian War – switched sides multiple times

what is point of his entrance?

Opinion #1 (John): Plato setting up Socrates as ultimate man, different way of living (Socrates never writes and Plato never appears)
Opinion #2 (Julie) – Socrates saying that Alcibiades asking for higher form of wisdom from Socrates, already higher on ladder than he realizes

Our Own Love Speeches

Tait

I could really use a case of the hiccups right now.
I agree with Aristophanes, it’s a longing and pursuit of the whole (just don’t think we were split apart), because we were created by God and God is love. Love brings out the best in us, makes us go beyond looking ourselves when we love someone else. Love is sacrificial and makes us go beyond our comfort zone when we have something we love.

Cheryl

I also agreed with Aristophanes, but in a different perspective. When we were as a whole, as Adam and Eve, we were perfect and then we sinned. And now we’re split apart and longing for that wholeness and that love, and that love came as Jesus – keeps us passionate about what we do and how we live our lives – it’s emotion, anger. Love is communication between us and God – we know are able again to communicate with him and be with him because of Jesus.

Megan

Focus on highest love, as agape or spiritual love.
Love is seeker of good, beautiful, but it doesn’t just seek or ask for something, in seeking it also bestows good on its object, as well as the seeker. In seeking abstract essence of beauty, also find beauty and goodness in other forms (physical forms, people cultures), and in doing so, honor and ignoble and impart good to them, the beloved, as well as to the lover.

Ken

Love is an ever transformative force. As Eryximachus said, love complements and brings us together with object of our love (Lover and Beloved come together). Perfects us, as Socrates said, and brings us to our true selves (Lover and Beloved perfect each other). Seventh rung on ladder, love is not just a force but a person, in God. We all become more and more alike as we love and are loved, also becoming more like our true selves (Lover and Beloved are perfected AND come together by the same process).

Julie

Gave me a savior before I knew I needed to be saved
Protective of father, jealous love of brother
I have mate, feel his love, desire to lie next to me at night
Children who confuse I love you with I need you
Friends with whom I laugh and cry
And after all this, one day I might just understand what love is.

Jeff

Inspired by Agathon. Love is ancient, debated through ages. It cannot be grasped or pictures, but can be felt. Make you feel lighter than air. Noble – perhaps ultimate power in this universe. Would have nothing to do if not for love, no entertainment. Love stinks, yeah yeah. Love binds us together, gives us hope, has power to transform us. Can see great examples of love, of sacrifice. True story of WWII concentration camp, someone did wrong and no one would confess, and guards were going to kill everyone, and one man stepped up to take blame and be killed. Love is when one man lays his life down for another. Love is deep and not shallow, so keep reaching for love

Wendy

is an expression of the Creator, the divine. Defined in Creator himself, a commitment – love is patient, kind, etc (I Cor 13 attributes) – we only have ability to love b/c he first loved us. We love him and others b/c of his overwhelming love. B/c God so loved us, we ought to love one another. We cannot see God, but when we love one another we can see Him. Love is sacrifice, for He gave himself . Love not about receiving gain, though we may benefit. We have committed to loving the other – different expression of loves depending on nature of relationships. Sexual love between man and wife. Falling in and out of love, “I love you” only for those you commit to loving forever; love = commitment.

John

Challenged in thinking is Biblical version of love what I believe or what I’ve been told by others. Is it feeling, decision, commitment, is it aspect of being whole? I can see all those things in my personal experience, and considering tonight’s discussion and how we can’t be complete apart from the Lord – why is it that he loves us and suffers and brings us back to Him? Do we complete God – I don’t think so, so brings us back – is it the building up or holding on?

Scott

What beautiful hints of love that love brings out what is honorable, that love imparts, that there is something greater than just body, completes us, cures us. Love is mediating relationship. Love is mediator. Yet desires unfulfilled, desires bent, toward others, eros. Thank goodness that Jesus would come and bring new word – agape – love that settles for nothing less that completeness, fulfillment, our very best. Augustine – love needs to be set in order – cherishes creation, animals, human beings, children, spouses, God – love in each relationship but love set in order – takes least and brings it to greatest.

Angie

As reading this, how do we find what we know of God and find it in this reading. Sacrifice inspired by love honored by gods; force of reconciliation between gods and man. Having the Word, and God is love – moving through speeches from little to more. We know that love is cure. (#5) – Love leads us to highest form of community. And with Socrates, love is highest form of beauty. Seeing words like intercessor, savior, that we use as Christians when pointing to God as love. Ref. 1 Cor. 13. Theme of younger pursuing older — love is servant because love is master – servanthood leads.

Pat

Compare love in ancient Greek society to our society. Birth – 3 yrs – love is called Mommy. From 3 – 20 yrs – love is car, action, play, schooling (male), girlfriends, gossip, schooling (girl); from 20s – love is career or family; by time you reach 50s, love is either about you or about others. When put on Jesus Christ, turns life from fighting and black and white, to living color.

Closing Remarks

Benefit to soul in seeking definitions of what we discuss and seek, to also knowing what is good and what we pursue.

History of the Peloponnesian War 2

Terms:

Republic

Political order whose head of state is not a monarch, and in modern times is usually a president. Supreme power lies in a body of citizens.

Democracy

Government by the people, exercised directly or through elected representatives. Unit with government, common people are the primary source of power. Majority rules. Respect for individuals. Greeks had something of a democracy.

Oligarchy

Rule by the few, the elite. Ruled by political families whose children are brought up to be the next generation of rulers.

Herodotus vs. Thucydides

Herodotus talks a lot about the gods as the causes of events. What role does fate play as an explanatory force? Here we see gods being believed in by the men in the story, but not included by Thucydides.

He tried to analyze from the particular events of the war to the deeper universal lessons that can apply to other times.

Why is it great?

It’s the beginning of history in the west.
It’s good analysis: contrasts people and events. He’s thoughtful. He’s centered on the task.
He seems to be pretty objective.

Alcibiades: example of the power of rhetoric, using it for personal gain, not committed to his side.

Parallels to our country: value on rhetoric, use of rhetoric to distance a politician from personal responsibility.

Heroicism: what it meant to be a hero then: we’ve raped more of your women than you have of ours. Now we have heroicism defined in light of the cross. There was bravery then, courage, but there is no light at the end of the tunnel, it is empty.

History of the Peloponnesian War 1

Pat on what we liked:

You get to hear about the reasonings behind the decisions: speeches, discussions, etc. I’ve never read anything like this. Rhetoric was well structured, even if they disagreed.
Introduction had a good “taking stock” review, giving the perspective of the story to come.
It’s a more complete account than Iliad, where we just got battles and who killed who.

Thucydides Biography (460-401)

wealthy family who owned gold mines. Contemporary of many famous people. Caught the plague and survived it. Athenian general. He didn’t write the history as the events were happening, but later. He was exiled for 20 years. Didn’t complete the account. Strove for accuracy–first “modern” historian. Gave a lot of information, showing people’s views. He didn’t accept unsupported statements, consulting documents and witnessing some of the events first hand. He didn’t combine fact & fiction, but just went with the facts. His history begins where Herodotus ends. Ranked as one of the greatest historians of all times.

Geography (Angie)

Location of main cities around the Greek world.

Game (Angie)

War card game. People and places of the war on cards with numbers representing value. In a war game, the highest number wins. Winners? Athens.

Impact of Geography on Population

Because it was so hilly, they went around the Aegean Sea to expand.
Nuclear families in homes grew to become little hamlets, towns and eventually city states.

Cause of the war

fear of Athens getting too powerful. Corinth was also a factor in the war.

Pericles

great orator and able to cover the event’s scope with his words, bringing along many people into his viewpoint.

The Magarian Decree

was it a good policy? Was it a natural extension of the current policies?

The Plague

what were the consequences in Athens? Moral degradation. What would the results have looked like if the plague had happened in Sparta.

Lessons of History (see Ancient Greek Civilization by Jeremy McInerey)

Weakness invites domination.
Power seeks increases
Necessity drives history
Leaders impose their will on the people win.

Quote from II.61 “Yet you must remember that you are citizens of a great city and that you were brought up in a way of life suited to her greatness; you must therefore be willing to face the greatest disasters and be determined never to sacrifice the glory that is yours.”

Discussion: similarities with the Kingdom of God?

Medea

The last of our ancient tragedies.

Background

Grammar Exercise

Wrote a tabloid article about an event in Medea.

Jennifer and Ken started the breaking news of the J-Med fracture.
Today in Corinth, a shocking turn of events for star couple Jason and Medea (or J-Med as they’ve been known to their fans). Jason has reportedly abandoned his long-time companion to make another royal match—none other than Glouce, the daughter of Creon. In an exclusive interview with Katie Corinth of Royalty Tonight, Medea’s spokesperson and nanny SuperNanny McPhee said Medea is outraged. “She’s devoted her life to this man!” McPhee said. “She left her home to be with him and has born him two children, only to be cast aside for the next young princess to cross Jason’s path. Frankly, I fear for the bride and groom,” McPhee continued. “Medea hasn’t yet completed her anger management course. I don’t know how she’ll handle this.” It’s rumored that Medea and her children will be exiled from Corinth. More to come in tomorrow’s report.
Tait and Angie followed up with interviews outside the courthouse with Jason and Medea.
Nick and Jeff reported on the upcoming wedding.
Wendy and Pat concluded with the obituaries.

Jeff followed up with some insights into Euripides and the techniques he used in the play. Played excerpt from…

WOMEN IN ANCIENT GREECE

Was he making sweeping statements about 5th century Greek women?

Line 220 – Medea’s tirade about the oppression and high sacrifice and low status of women. What does this suggest about how women were treated in ancient Greece?

What was the role of the nurse? Line 100 Her fear of what Medea was capable of doing.

MEDEA’S CHARACTER

Medea’s exchange with the King Creon – what did this reveal about her character? Persuasiveness. Able to take on powerful men. Convinces Creon to let her stay one more day. Later she meets Aegues and begins plotting, conniving, and persuading another rich powerful king to marry and give her more children. Did anyone see through her duplicity? Jason? Creon? Aegeus?

THE LAW OF CITIZENSHIP

His perspective:

Jason seems to defend his actions and the nobility of his scheme.
For full citizenship, both father and mother had to be citizens for the children to be Greek citizens with rights and privileges. Turns out it was a common for men to take a second wife in order to bear children with full rights to inherit the family name and fortune. The hope was that this second family would take care of the 1st wife and family as well. This law of citizenship was passed before this play was written, so we begin to see why Jason thought this was the right thing to do!

Her perspective:

She is twice exiled. The law doesn’t pertain to her. Her sons will be outcast and ridiculed. A trapped woman.

THE FURIES

Jason went along with the chopping up of Medea’s brother, went along with killing her father. Are the Furies pursing Jason and Medea for these evil deeds?

Euripides tragedies won 3rd (last) place that year, but hit on some of the hot button issues of the day. So much so that the women of that day were angry at their husbands for attending his plays because of his portrayal of women. Based on the popular stories of Jason and the Golden Fleece, but made up the part of Medea murdering her children.

The 1st and 2nd place winners that year, 431 B.C. (Wikipedia)

The Bacchae

Discussion Questions (Ken)

Dionysus and his Thyrus descend on Thebes

Disguise: For almost the entire play, Dionysus is disguised as a priest of Dionysus. The audience is in on the trick, but the characters are not. Comment on the effectiveness of this device.
Two Bacchae: Compare and contrast the Asiatic Bacchae with the Theban Bacchae.
Dionysus vs. Yahweh: Compare and contrast the worship of Dionysus in The Bacchae with the worship of Yahweh in the Old Testament. What are the differences, if any, between what Dionysus wants from humans and what Yahweh wants? What character traits best describe them?
Dionysus vs. Jesus: Compare and contrast Dionysus’ birth story with that of Jesus of Nazareth.
Masks: How could the convention of masks come in handy at the end of this play?
Poor Cadmus: Why is Cadmus punished so in this play (his family dies)?
Raise Your Thyrsus: Do you believe in the gods?

Introduction

Ken complete in fawnskin and with thyrsus in hand opened the discussion with a dramatic reading of the first few pages of the book.

Historical Setting

Just before the Trojan War in 1250 during the 3rd generation after the founding of Thebes

http://www.sikyon.com/Thebes/history_eg.html

Literary Devices

The audience is in on Dionysus’s identity but the characters are not. What effect does this have on the play?

Suspense?

Helps the audience from becoming confused?

Adds an element of humor

Compare Asiatic Bacchae with Theban Women

Asiatic Bachae (brought with Dionysus)

Willing worshippers?

Theban women

Driven mad. Not worshipping by their own choice. Possessed or in a frenzy

Yahweh vs. Dionysus

Yahweh

Wants recognition and status but also desires complete devotion

Is a jealous god

Desires his people to be set apart

Provides a plan

Is the one and only God

Dionysus

Does he want Complete Devotion?

Or just recognition of his status.

Does Dionysus want a set apart people

Seems to be after the outward show or “lip service”

Just wants to be recognized on par among the other gods

Dionysus Vs. Jesus

Jesus

Left the Father and was born on earth by a mortal

Virgin birth story is not believed

Godly identity is not believed

Forgives those who persecute him

Provides the way to eternal glory

Dionysus

Leaves the mortal and is taken to the “Father” and is born

Virgin birth story is not believed

Godly Identity is not believed

Sought vengenance on those who persecuted him

Provides escape from suffering on earth

Correllations

Bread and wine are symbols of blessing

Dramatic Complications

How would ancient greeks have staged an earthquake?

Some think the chorus were mimetic dancers miming out the story as it happened

Maybe it happened “offstage”

One theory is the more descriptive the dialogue the less likely the event was acted out

Here is a link with further info

http://anarchon.tripod.com/indexGREEKTH.html

Historical context

When Euripides wrote and performed these plays the Persian Empire and battle of Thermopoly would have been recent history. How could this have formed/influenced the message of the play?

God’s Today

If the greeks were still alive today would they create god’s for the internet? atomic bomb?…

Are they trying to explain the effects of alcohol by forming a wine god?

What is the message about the power of Dionysus?

When you think about what happened to Pentheus what is the point?

Is it showing a force beyond you?

Scripture Parallel

Daniel interpreting Nebuchadnezzers Dream.

Nebuchadnezzer gloating in his powerful kingdom loses his sanity and fancies himself a cow. He is not restored until he recognizes God

Pentheous proud and haughty will not acknowledge Dionysus so he loses his sanity and his life.

Pentheus seems to be a zealot for the wrong cause narrow minded and legalistic not open to new ideas

is Euripedis showing the fault of this mindset?

Cadmus

why is Cadmus punished so harshly?

He loses both his family and his heir

He was open minded willing and ready to worship Dionysus.

Is he responsible for the views and actions of his family?

Or is it that he came “to late to the party”

Do You Believe in the Greek Gods?

Are bits and pieces of greek gods or “composite gods” unconsciously infiltrating our beliefs today?

Ancient greek worship seems very transactional

Conclusion

Significant debate on 5th century views of the gods.

Is Euripedes demonstrating what anthopromorphised gods would be like?

To an ancient greek citizen asking “Do you believe in the gods?” would be like asking someone today “Do you believe in a tornado?”

Ending

We ended this weeks book club with a scripture reading from Ephesians 5:8.

Oresteia 2: Libation Bearers & Eumenides

Discussion questions (Nick)

Family Dynamic: Orestes and Electra hate their mother and love their father despite his killing their sister. Was it loyalty to their father?
Character Development: As opposed to The Iliad, do we root for and against certain characters?
Gods: Are there changes in the hierarchy of the gods?
Cultural Import: Considering the tensions between Athens and Sparta, what points could Aeschylus be making?
Justice: What does this play say about justice, fairness, and logic?
Verdict: If you were Athena with the deciding vote, what decision would you make?

Resources by The Teaching Company:

Overview of Orestes’ family tree

Tantalus: tried to trick the gods, but was caught. Tantalize: temptation without satisfaction, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalus
Son: Pelops: eaten, reconstructed, cheated in race, won bride, family curse
Sons: Atreus and Thyestes (twin sons): battled for the throne. Possessor of golden lamb could have throne, Or of someone could move the sun backwards. Both were king at different times.
Atreus serves up Thyestes’ children, but one survived
Thyestes’ Son: Aegisthus: abandoned as a child in the woods, found by a shepherd and raised in Atreus’ househould, affair with Clytemnestra, killed Atreus
Atreus’ Sons: Agamemnon (Married to Clytemnestra) and Menelaus
Agamemnon’s Children: Iphegenia, Electra, Orestes. Agamemnon’s daughter Iphegenia sacrificed to gain the gods’ favor back to have wind for his ships

Sacrificing and eating of people: 1) 2 Kings 6:24-30 and 2) Egyptians practiced some human sacrificing early on (but not of their own people)

Discussion

Family Dynamic: Orestes and Electra hate their mother and love their father despite his killing their sister. Was it loyalty to their father?

They had no place in their kingdom with her in power. (They’re disenfranchised when they are the rightful heirs.)

Did they really want justice?

Of course, if their father had been around, would they be safe with him? He killed his own child!

Clytemnestra had sent Orestes away; he was resentful of her treatment.

Ideas of the killing seem similar to those in Through Gates of Splendor (Elisabeth Elliott)

The Electra Complex: Falls in love with the father, hates her mother

Avenging Honor: Line 240 (except in Angie’s version) “You light to my eyes, loves in one! I have to call you father, it is fate. And I turn to you the love I gave my mother…

Honor Killing (typically in Muslim countries): done by a father or brother, No witnesses to the killing (family sent away when it happens) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_Killing

Character Development: As opposed to The Iliad, do we root for and against certain characters?

Some character development or at least an understanding of what is going on.

With a play, you have to imagine some of the details.

How did the Chorus help (or not help)? What about them?

The Chorus plays the part of the Furies: Singing in unison, like an opera. Dancing, using instruments, etc.

Did they wear masks? Yes, probably identical masks, but different plays may have had different masks (i.e., old man’s face).

Gods: Are there changes in the hierarchy of the gods?

They were relatively quiet, removed from the situation.

Communicating through dreams, seers, etc.

Fate and the Furies play a greater role.

Zeus appeared higher then Apollo or Athena: Line 625: Bend to the will of Zeus. Line 775: Appeal to Zeus

Zeus charged Orestes to avenge his father’s death.

Some consistency with Zeus’ character as portrayed in the Iliad.

Cultural Import: Considering the tensions between Athens and Sparta, what points could Aeschylus be making?

There was a real war that seems to have been going on, how much is then reflected in these plays?

Was Aeschylus making a political statement? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeschylus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Libation_Bearers#The_Libation_Bearers

People wanted to have their peers judge them.

How does this cycle of avenging end? A judgment is made—it’s time to accept it and move on.

Introduction of a voting process: leads to a stalemate that requires the gods to step in and decide.

Tensions spurred on by fear of the Athenians?

“The Just War” doctrine

Athens was started to flourish around 450 B.C.

Eleusinian Mysteries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries (Ancient World Masons)

Aeschylus accused of divulging the mysteries, spared because of war service

This play helps us better understand the Bible through the context of what was happening in the world at that time. This is why God commanded that the Israelites wipe out the pagan cultures. He wasn’t bloodthirsty; it was His way of protecting His people.

Justice: What does this play say about justice, fairness, and logic?

Orestes had an internal struggle about killing his mother, before, during and after.

When speaking to his mother, his bitterness is reflected. “You bore me and threw me away…”

Orestes claims to have been sold into slavery, embarrassed to mention the price.

Killing of mothers, fathers, and children is frowned upon.

Orestes argues that it is worse to kill a man than a woman.

Evidence of juries in Egypt 4000 years ago; idea taken by the Greeks?

Code of Hammurabi: @1760 B.C.

Verdict: If you were Athena with the deciding vote, what decision would you make?

Juries of 500 people: speaks to the vast wealth of the Athenian economy that so many people could serve on a jury

There is a natural inclination to root for the children.

Is there a time for grace and forgiveness?

Helps us to appreciate a justice system and how it protects us.

Oresteia 1: Agamemnon

Discussion Questions (John)

Who is Agamemnon’s prize?
What role does Fate play?
Which god is most engaged in this play?
What was the same god’s main role in the Iliad?
Where does the moral compass in this story get its indication of North?
What character(s) do you as the audience most readily identify with?
What is the literary technique that is drawing you (if not enrapturing you, inviting you to contemplate the conflict that is unfolding before you) into the story?
In considering the Fate and the Furies vs. the gods over which Zeus is head (including Apollo) do you see any parallel to modern day discourse on Free Will vs. Pre-destination? When we gather at Pat’s house please share references from Agamemnon that illustrate the parallel, if any (or any other portions of Agamemnon that grabbed you deep in your soul and bid you ponder the deep complexities of life).
Lastly, in considering your learning experience with the Iliad… what was a core message that Aeschylus was communicating to the culture? Assuming there was a core message and not just some shameless product placement advertisement for fishing nets and the newest rage – red silk carpets for, “the only greeting fit for a king”.

Characters

Agamemnon returns from war with Cassandra, prophetess, the one Apollo is against (no wonder he is cut down).

Cassandra: had Apollo’s gift of prophecy, but cursed, not understood by the chorus.

Apollo: on the side of Troy in the war, against Agamemnon, the god who was most prevalent in the story

Chorus: always questioning the characters, the one representing the audience, the ones learning who does what and why.

Clytemnestra: for 10 years she knew that her husband had sacrificed

Fate: the rules, predestination, the way it should be. Violating Fate is what gets the Furies

Perhaps Aeschylus is asking us to consider the newer gods in power, as opposed to Fate. And/or perhaps he is comparing these old methods of authority versus democracy.

Sacrifice of Iphigeneia.

Agamemnon offered an innocent to pay the price for someone guilty. She was to be the wife of Achilles.

Historicity

Is there any historical basis for this story, or these characters?

Bard’s Tale: Modern Day Iliad

John Seefried reads the modern day bard’s tale of the Seefrieds, Husos, Kinards, Brunses and Pat. Words fail to describe the experience of hearing such a heroic tale.

Playwrite: Modern Day Oresteia

But wait! There is more. John continues with a modern day play in the style of Aeschylus on the topic of the war in Iraq.

Video: The Context

Prof. Jeremy McInerney, Ancient Greek Civilization, Lecture 17

Background on the ancient greek tragedies, the catharsis (cleansing) = a way of dealing with the fallenness of man.

Was the theatre used for anything else during the year, besides the 3 days of these religious festivals?
http://www.greektheatre.gr

Possible source of the Sphinx riddle: the idea of old man on three legs (line 80 or so) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx

What’s better? Star Wars or The Lord of the Rings?

The Iliad 3:17-24

We enacted the final 8-minute puppet play, held discussion on the expected yet unexpected finale to this book, and watched a pertinent clip from The Teaching Company while we nibbled on some fruits, veggies, and ambrosia of Mt. Olympus. Afterward we took 10 minutes to write individual summaries of key facts and personal thoughts on The Iliad and concluded with a summary by Ken on why The Iliad and other Great Books are worth our efforts to understand them.

Expect the Unexpected

After the grand finale of “The Iliad in 8 Minutes or Less”, we discussed some unexpected happenings in these final books. Finally Achilles steps up, bringing more action and emotion into the plot. Instead of a generic see-saw of mayhem, a long awaited trajectory begins to take shape in the story.

Greek View of Death

The Greek and Trojan warriors were not afraid to die. After all, death was determined by the Fates. What they feared most was a bad legacy, a dishonorable death, or to be left as carrion without a proper burial.
Funeral games: What is that all about?
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/olympics/a/OlympicGames.htm

Achilles Lives!

No resolution. Even thought the ending of the tale is known, the book doesn’t take us as far as we expected — the death of Achilles, the arrival of the Trojan horse, or the fall of Troy. Only the rage of Achilles is resolved.

Greek Values

Many of the heroes seemed “flat”, indistinct; lacking moral characterizations that would make them individuals we could like or dislike, cheer for or rail against. The descriptions were all about physical prowess, strength, ability to fight and/or stir up blood lust in their comrades.
So what did the Greeks value in a man? Lineage, efficacy in war, skillful rhetoric, physical beauty with an intolerance of physical weakness or flaws (for example, lame Hephaestus scorned by his mother, Hera)

Gods began to fight gods

How the gods are explained – through their behaviors, characteristics. They are man-made explanations of the mysteries of life. Their strengths – great powers, miracles, strong loyalties, wise, fair, willing to abide by the Fates (shadowy but potent figures who ultimately control the destiny of mortals). Their weaknesses – selfish, vindictive, petty, childish, prone to strife when bored. Is there a connection between immortality and being bored?

Fates

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirae

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/202442/Fate

Toolbox Time

Snack discussion

We watched a clip from The Teaching Company: Ancient Greek Civilization, Chapter 5 The Age of Heroes, from 18:00 to the end. Dr. Jeremy McInerney gave a greater understanding of the oral tradition of these great stories during these ancient times. If a storyteller went into a town that had a great warrior, he could especially highlight the heroic deeds of this home town hero. And if the town didn’t have the distinction of harboring a renowned Trojan soldier, the bard could create one! When Homer endeavored to set these fluid tales to parchment, it altered the fluidity of the work and the freedom and creativity of the storytellers yet thankfully preserved the tale for all mankind.

Summary

We each wrote a brief summary of key factual information, plot summary, characters, and observations, and also some personal thoughts or impressions.

So many things were built with The Iliad as a foundation. A solid foundation that under girds the great philosophies,…the Roman culture…Christianity…its spread throughout the West…our heritage. It relates us to our ancestors. These are the great stories that help us to be who we are. As we read through the great books we will see we are standing on the shoulders of giants. Myths, values, what’s worth doing, worth living for. Immortality, that yearning for significance, that even after we die we want people to be moved and shaped by what we’ve done. As we study and understand these ancient books, may we study and understand ourselves as well.

The Iliad 2:9-16

Gods vs. God

The origin of the Greek gods seems to be influenced by preceding ancient people groups, such as the Minoans.
MessageNet | Wikipedia | ThinkQuest

Comparison of Character Traits

Appease the gods vs. glorifying God

God made in man’s image vs. man made in God’s image
Capricious gods vs. unchanging God
Convincing/discussing vs. sovereignty
Human traits vs. pure traits
Appease the gods vs. people benefit when glorifying God (communion)
Discerning a god’s way vs. discerning God’s will

Reading in Historical Context

But how much of our contrasts are clouded by 20th century Christian terms and New Testament knowledge? Would the differences between the gods and God be all that different if Homer had been using our modern Christian language? Ken challenged us to wear their shoes, come into their world view, allow Homer to teach us a little bit—what can we learn without leaning on our modern thinking? Let’s take the opportunity to learn from these ancient friends. Don’t just “know” them, learn from them. Let’s discover the meat.

Foreshadowing

Interestingly, Homer spoils the endings—marching along in a story, the fates declare what is going to happen (spill the beans) and then the story meanders along to this foregone conclusion. Does Fate ever miss? Example: 16.523 Sarpedon’s fate was sealed long ago.
One possibility: This shows the inevitability of their lives.
Another thought: Is this foretelling the beginning of the literary device of foreshadowing?

The Pivot Point

The intractable Achilles pivots. 16.33-52 Patroclus challenges the heart of his friend, Achilles. Finally Achilles insists ” Let bygones be bygones now. Done is done. How on earth can a man rage on forever?” 16.69-70. Ken noted this to be pivotal: Achilles begins to soften his stand—not yet ready to join the fray, but willing to lend his gear!

Power Struggle

Jeff noted a parallel between the power struggles of Agamemnon and Achilles and Zeus vs. Poseidon. Kings and gods vying for power and supremacy.